Steering Ratio / FFB discussion (from season 8)

[Bird]

erm...sorry guys but I'll pull out.

I'm trying to like rFactor and this mod, but I just can't. I find it bad in every department. Now, I could live with the gfx. Probably even the sounds. But the program itself, the simulation & the ffb...those I can't tolerate.

Still, you guys enjoy it, and cyas on another track!

[Daveo555]

You not getting away that easy, Keep on working on it mate. Try a combo of Realfeel & leos, i find that to work rather well.

[Bird]

You not getting away that easy, Keep on working on it mate. Try a combo of Realfeel & leos, i find that to work rather well.
what's that? If it fixes the horrible "real feel" (which IMHO is anything but real) it might even work...

[Daveo555]

what's that? If it fixes the horrible "real feel" (which IMHO is anything but real) it might even work...

Ok, the combo works by splitting how each plugin works by 70% Leos/ 30% realfeel. Leos gets its data from the tyre data & also suspension geometry, whereas realfeel just gets it from suspension is acting. So by combining them you get a good feel.

I also run a modified controller file that i found at NoGrip, to which i find is rather nice, and with the combo is works well for me.

If you want i can get you the the files & program for you to try.

[Crash]

it sounds like your ffb is not configured properly to me

Everyone has a different interpretation of what feels realistic and what they like.. which in a way gives rfactor a strength because you have 4 different ffb options (defualt, real feel, leo & feelsreal) as well as a combination of leo & real feel.. where rfactor is a pain is going through the options trying them and getting it setup to feel right for you.. so its potential strength is also its weakness, and by no means is it great out of the box. This makes it hard becuase one persons rfactor ffb does not feel like someone elses with all the different configuration options & steps not to mention different wheels.

I've tried netKar pro.. and the very first thing I thought was, the FFB in netkar felt like real feel to me (shock horror :tape:) with the steering rack torque feel and in the type of feeling you get when losing grip on the rear, admittadly netKar out of the box has better effects in the centre as well as additional tyre effects, but I reckon if you spent the time on it you could get a well setup combo of realfeel & leo to feel similar to netKar pro.

I've also tried Gran Turismo 5 with the G25 and thought the ffb was pretty bad.. worse still I couldnt adjust anything in GT5 to make it feel better.. so for me rfactor has much better ffb than GT5, no doubt because I've tweaked it to the way I like it :)

to further illustrate what I mean, I had someone do some laps on my rig recently.. this person has never really liked the historic mod that much, but actually enjoyed it when they used my setup. First thing they did when they got home was to duplicate some of my settings, and now it feels much better for them - thats not to say my settings will feel good for others though. One big thing with realfeel and historics, the steering forces get stronger (and feels better) as you add caster onto the car - which is arguably realistic, old cars with hardly any caster truly dont feel very good on the road and wander in the centre lol

Theres a post here (http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242549) on nogrip, from someone who has tried iracing and felt he could get a similar feel out of rfactor, he also went the leo & realfeel combo and has written how to set it up to be like his..

bottom line, if it feels horrible it isnt setup right (quite possibly effects are reversed), and theres plenty of guys here that will help you getting it to how you like it :)


EDIT: hopefully the experience & knowledge ISI have gained working with F1 teams simulators on rfactor pro will result in a much better "out of the box" ffb in RF2!

[yokelhama]

I tried those ffb settings you linked to crash and was very impressed. I was using 100% realfeel previously for historics. U have a dfp right bird? Someone on that nogrip thread is raving about these settings with a dfp, might be worth another go.

[Bird]

thanks Crash, I'll try that link.

well, GT5 is one thing, it's not a full sim. Having said that, it wasn't as horrible as this is, at the moment. The ffb is not reversed btw, it's just all over the place, not getting any real tangible feedback, just some crap with a huge deadzone in the middle - which is still jerking around often - seemingly at random.

iRacing: perfection. They've really nailed it. If I could get half of that feel out of this, it'd be awesome. My only gripe is the tailiness you get there. You get used to it, but it can be tough to catch a small slide.
nkP; pretty damn good, IMHO. And it's more natural the way the tyre physics handles things, there's ample warning as the rubber starts to let go. I think at the moment nkp handling is the king. I'll see how the iR updated tyre physics are going to be - if they finish it before my sub expires :/


Edit:
Btw; I think this is where rF fails: it's too flexible. It's big wobbly mass of flexibility. I just like something stable and usable, without all these hassles. Like these two mentioned here.
I mean who wants to start their playing by digging and asking and configuring for hours to get the thing going?


Edit2:

ok this has made it more tolerable. It still feels fairly lifeless in the middle, even at high speeds, and it gives me weird sideways jolts sometimes (as if I have mounted a small curb - but I can see nothing on the road...maybe the gfx does not relate to the actual road surface ? )

My next issues, I wonder if you guys have solutions to these as well? Thanks in advance.

- excessive shake of vision (is there any way to get rid of it - preferably completely?)
- not enough FFB (it's at reversed 100%) - not sure if the in-game normal FFB settings have an effect now, the logi panel or what has?
- seems as if some artificial brake was always on. The car stops from 20Km/h in about 10 meters. from 60, in about 50meters. wtf?

[Crash]

I mean who wants to start their playing by digging and asking and configuring for hours to get the thing going?

I love the fact you have so much room for tweaking rf to your liking.. whereas other sims/games frustrate the hell outta me in the way your limited to what the developer "thinks" is good for you :)

not everyone likes tweaking and delving into things like I do though, so yes your absolutely right rf is let down for a lot of guys by being too configurable and not great out of the box :)

Its worth going through the pain if you have the patience thouh, I notice you find nkpro really good and I'm not kidding when I say I find nkpro similar in feeling to realfeel in regards to how I feel the loss of rear end grip and the loading effects on the steering (and I find nkpro nothing at all like leo or default rfactor ffb by comparison)

probably the very first thing I'd check is that you have FFB effects set to low in rfactor, this is very important, Leo and realfeel both say to do this because the default rfactor FFB has some "fake" effects apparently that are introduced when you go any higher than low.. even now when I try new mods for the first time I just run defualt rfactor ffb with effects set to low, then consider putting it into a seperate install with either realfeel or realfeel/leo combo later.

[Bird]

probably the very first thing I'd check is that you have FFB effects set to low in rfactor, this is very important, Leo and realfeel both say to do this because the default rfactor FFB has some "fake" effects apparently that are introduced when you go any higher than low.. even now when I try new mods for the first time I just run defualt rfactor ffb with effects set to low, then consider putting it into a seperate install with either realfeel or realfeel/leo combo later.

ha! another important piece there. I'm pretty sure it's on high...
thanks mate

Edit: oh one more thing;
the steering.

- I'm turning my wheel 90 degrees, the ingame wheel turns about 45 - and the car does not turn either. anyway to fix this as well? ;)

[Crash]

I'm turning my wheel 90 degrees, the ingame wheel turns about 45 - and the car does not turn either. anyway to fix this as well? ;)

two things there

1) the difference between the ingame display and your actual movement - not something I normally worry about, but there is a line in the controller.ini
Steering Wheel Range="400" // Degrees of rotation of in-game steering wheel
as far as I know, this is what "replicates" your actual movement in game.. so you should set this to match what your wheel is configured for. if your running 900 degrees on your steering wheel (dfp?) set this line to 900

2) sounds like a steering ratio problem.. I run a very quick ratio (which I think may be what improves some of the ffb feelings for me actually but thats another discussion entirely lol)
typically in historics I'm running something like 8 to 1.. so 8 degrees of steering movement moves the tyres 1 degree.. like I say this is very quick (and unusual). by contrast I think Glen runs 11.25 to 1 or therabouts.

I'd start with say 12 to 1

take your steering wheel degrees, and divide it by the ratio you want.. so if you have 900 degrees configured on your wheel, dividing by 12 comes to 75, divide this again by 2 (front tyres) and thats what you should use in your car setup.. go to the car setup -> general screen and set your steering lock to 37 or 38 degrees

Since you run nkpro.. you can even get the steering ratio you run in nkpro (in the setup area from memory) as an idea of what you like :)

I know I made that a bit more confusing than it needed to be, but I think it helps to understand what it is your changing

[Bird]

thanks mate, I'll try that.

It's shaping up, I've found that indeed reducing the announced number (rCTRL-7) is the way to get stronger effects (how weird) but it's getting there.
The in-game FFB was set to "full" - put that down to "low" and the weird stuff are gone. Big thumbs up, now it feels all right.

any idea on the other stuff? maybe you've missed those - I've edited the post before ;)
But I'd really appreciate a bit more support, if you don't mind.
the excessive shaking of my vision (it's getting me motion sickness) and the funny short-range free wheeling are the current weird stuff.

Edit:
OH, I've fun itno something in the leoffb.ini in the plugins
28.0 Front Wheel lock angle, degrees (max deflection to one side from straight on)

shouldn't I set this one?


Edit2: RE the steering lock: it seems to be set to 14 deg for the alfa I'm trying. Non-changeable either.

And I've now run out of money. grrrr.....annoying prick of a program. (ok I've goodled this one)

[Daveo555]

Re: Leos - Whatever steering lock you end up running ingame, change the front wheel lock in the leos ini to match that.


Ok, with the fixed steering lock, in the upgrades part. Change the steering to adjustable and then you'll be fine.



Open you PLR file in notepad. Find this bit, and change all the numbers to 0 to remove all vibrations.

"Cockpit Vibration Mult1="1.00000" // Primary vibration multiplier affects eyepoint position (base magnitude is in VEH or cockpit file)
Cockpit Vibration Freq1="31.00000" // Primary rate of vibration affects eyepoint position (higher framerates allow higher rates)
Cockpit Vibration Mult2="1.00000" // Secondary vibration multiplier affects eyepoint orientation (base magnitude is in VEH or cockpit file)
Cockpit Vibration Freq2="37.00000" // Secondary rate of vibration affects eyepoint orientation"

[Bird]

beautiful, thanks mate!

Feck I'm gonna cry...now the other half of the FFB has gone away while I was going in and out of program to try and set everything up. It's gone all loose on me.

Ok, I give it up for now, it was more than enough "fun" for today.

See? 2 hours of mucking about and when I'd start to do some actual laps it falls apart again.
god I hate rFactor...

[Daveo555]

beautiful, thanks mate!

Feck I'm gonna cry...now the other half of the FFB has gone away while I was going in and out of program to try and set everything up. It's gone all loose on me.

Ok, I give it up for now, it was more than enough "fun" for today.

See? 2 hours of mucking about and when I'd start to do some actual laps it falls apart again.
god I hate rFactor...


Go to your controller section, flick the the controller type from wheel to joystick then back to wheel. That should/ will work.

[Crash]

all good bird, its getting there :)

no problems getting support, theres plenty of guys that will help including daveo & myself of course :)

The vibration setting changes in your .plr Daveo posted above are important.. its stops all that horrible shaking and reduces the need to vomit lol

at risk of upsetting the leo fanboi's here :fear:.. I'm inclined to suggest you remove leo for now :tape: reason being leo is one of those plugins that needs constant changes (different car, different leo settings).. even I get annoyed with it and I like tweaking lol, and I can see that your not one to enjoy the need to change things all the time.. obviously you'd prefer to be able to just drive the cars- up to you of course :) in any case I think its the basics that need sorting out right now.

As Daveo said, you need to get the adjustable steering upgrade, which you can buy once you buy the car.. there is a simple cheat that gives you all cars & loads of money if you find you dont have enough

Grab any car, and go into a test session - type in the chat box, in capitals ISI_BABYFACTORY

then exit out of the test session, rfactor will bump up your bank balance and you will now own all cars - making getting upgrades easy :)

[NineTen]

Some good reading there guys. I'm thinking I might try a new setup as my ffb hasn't been the same since getting my new pc. Can I suggest that a mod put all the info about the wheel setup & ffb into it's own thread? Makes it easier for others to find if they need it.

Now to my question about wheels. Since I have my new pc I turn it on & my g25 is fine & has ffb. When I load rfactor it still ok but when I go into a session my wheel goes limp & I lose ffb. So I have to unplug then plug the wheel back in for it to work. Bloody annoying!

[Daveo555]

Do this 910.


Go to your controller section, flick the the controller type from wheel to joystick then back to wheel. That should/ will work.

[Wally]

These are my LeoFFB settings for the RSR Porsche:

16.0 Front Wheel lock angle, degrees (max deflection to one side from straight on)
0.7 Front wheel distance to centerline (half the front wheel track) in metres, from .pm file
1.136 Front axle distance to body reference point (about half the wheel base) in metres, from .pm file
5 Relative strength of FFB effects
6 Aligning moment curve shape / feeling of tyre losing grip. Lower numbers are duller, range 1.0 .. 10
0.99 Negative aligning moment parameter for high slip angles, range 0.0 ... 1.0
9.67 Slip angle where aligning moment reverses direction - typically between 8 and 15 degrees
0.105 Caster (dimetionless)
0 Camber ratio (not degrees!)
5 Road bumps feeling on the wheel
11500.0 Maximum FFB force for stationary and low speed effects
4.0 Stiffness of stationary wheels
1.5 Wheel rubber hardness (1..5)
8 How quickly static forces drop off when rolling

I use these with RealFeel at 30% (adjusted with the Right Ctrl + keypad 1/3 keys).

The first number needs to be edited to match your in-game steering lock.

The second and third front wheel and axle numbers vary from car to car. An easy way to find these number is to use this tool: http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=leoFFBeditor

You open the car's .tbc and .pm files (GameData/Vehicles/blah blah blah) with the tool and it determines those values for you. When you double-click on a tyre compound, you take the larger of the two values as your slip angle.

The Caster should match your in-game caster setting for the car (in radians - multiply degrees by 0.0175). I don't think this makes a huge difference to the overall feel.

Relative strength of FFB effects: bigger number makes the force stronger.

Aligning moment curve shape: Can fiddle till you like the feel. It controls how strongly you feel the transition from grip to loss of grip. It's a pretty abrupt feeling.

Road bumps feeling on the wheel: As it says - adjust to taste.

Camber ratio: Apparently this is meant to be the ratio of the front to rear camber, but it just feels very wrong. Affects the feel in some strange way. Best to leave it at zero, I think.

I wouldn't change the rest of the values. The Negative aligning moment parameter is important for the feel. The sample that Crash linked to has this as 0, which is just wrong (0.99 is the default). Some of the other values in that downloaded ini file are a bit wrong as well, so try these numbers.

[Mr Fox]

These are my LeoFFB settings for the RSR Porsche:

16.0 Front Wheel lock angle, degrees (max deflection to one side from straight on)
0.7 Front wheel distance to centerline (half the front wheel track) in metres, from .pm file
1.136 Front axle distance to body reference point (about half the wheel base) in metres, from .pm file
5 Relative strength of FFB effects
6 Aligning moment curve shape / feeling of tyre losing grip. Lower numbers are duller, range 1.0 .. 10
0.99 Negative aligning moment parameter for high slip angles, range 0.0 ... 1.0
9.67 Slip angle where aligning moment reverses direction - typically between 8 and 15 degrees
0.105 Caster (dimetionless)
0 Camber ratio (not degrees!)
5 Road bumps feeling on the wheel
11500.0 Maximum FFB force for stationary and low speed effects
4.0 Stiffness of stationary wheels
1.5 Wheel rubber hardness (1..5)
8 How quickly static forces drop off when rolling

I use these with RealFeel at 30% (adjusted with the Right Ctrl + keypad 1/3 keys).

The first number needs to be edited to match your in-game steering lock.

The second and third front wheel and axle numbers vary from car to car. An easy way to find these number is to use this tool: http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=leoFFBeditor

You open the car's .tbc and .pm files (GameData/Vehicles/blah blah blah) with the tool and it determines those values for you. When you double-click on a tyre compound, you take the larger of the two values as your slip angle.

The Caster should match your in-game caster setting for the car (in radians - multiply degrees by 0.0175). I don't think this makes a huge difference to the overall feel.

Relative strength of FFB effects: bigger number makes the force stronger.

Aligning moment curve shape: Can fiddle till you like the feel. It controls how strongly you feel the transition from grip to loss of grip. It's a pretty abrupt feeling.

Road bumps feeling on the wheel: As it says - adjust to taste.

Camber ratio: Apparently this is meant to be the ratio of the front to rear camber, but it just feels very wrong. Affects the feel in some strange way. Best to leave it at zero, I think.

I wouldn't change the rest of the values. The Negative aligning moment parameter is important for the feel. The sample that Crash linked to has this as 0, which is just wrong (0.99 is the default). Some of the other values in that downloaded ini file are a bit wrong as well, so try these numbers.

Hi Wally, just a quick question,

So is there no fiddling with realfeel, just to put it at 30% and thats it? and then adjust leo to suit.

[Crash]

Was thinking about ffb strength this morning... and wondering why I find the ffb strength too much at times in rfactor, where others complain about it not being strong enough and having little feel....

for example, I literally had sore arms after 45 odd laps at Indy with the mustang.. not extremely sore or lasting soreness or anything like that, but I knew I'd done 45 las with very heavy fffb forces during the constant high speed cornering lol

So here's my "theory" on why its plenty dtrong enough for me.. and why I dont even run 100% ffb in rfactor

1) Logitech control panel settings: I run 106% ffb strength in the logitech setup, this figure is straight from the enduracers readme and works pretty well for me

2) rfactor ffb strength: In historics atm I'm running -93% ffb strength

Calculation: I reckon the simple maths would be that I'm running 93% of 106%.. which comes to an final overall strength of 98.58%


3) Caster settings in car setup: I typically run maximum caster especially in historics, caster amplifies the strength of the ffb, so I'm getting increased ffb by doing that.. bit hard to quantify that.. but Im sure it makes a difference

4) Steering ratio: I think this would have a huge difference to the strength that ends up in my hands.. a quicker ratio means more resistance /more force at my hands.. its simple gearing up or gearing down, a higher ratio is easier to move and provides less feedback to your hands..

Calculation: If I'm running a ratio of 7.5:1 (315 degrees on G25 / (21 degrees car setup x 2 tyres)) then I think we could use that as a way of measuring how string my ffb actually is...

So 98.58% overall strength / 7.5 ratio = a ffb strength "rating" of 13.14


by comparison, someone lets call him "RacerX" runs 900 degrees on thier G25 and 38 degrees in car setup.. with 100% ffb strength and 100% g25 controller strength.. comes out to:

900/(38x2) = steering ratio of 11.84
100% of 100% = overall ffb strength of 100%
100 / 11.84 - ffb strength "rating" of 8.45

in other words "RacerX"'s setup would feel only about 64% as strong as what I feel.... and thats not taking into account the fact I run maximum caster which also amplifies the strength.. so I might end up feeling double what he feels :tape:

[Mr Fox]

For each 10 degrees of wheel lock I run 300 degrees rotation.

I see you run 21 degrees for 315 rotation. I thought you would have been around the 600 rotation mark. 2 inches on the wheel must turn you a fair bit.

[Crash]

For each 10 degrees of wheel lock I run 300 degrees rotation.

I see you run 21 degrees for 315 rotation. I thought you would have been around the 600 rotation mark. 2 inches on the wheel must turn you a fair bit.

Yup it does :)

I got used to driving with a very quick ratio since my 1st steering wheel was a Logitech formula force which only had around 180 degrees of lock (from memory).. so coming from 180 odd, 315 degrees feels like plenty to me lol

EDIT: a missing piece of info is that I also run a sensitivity of around 40%.. this means in the "centre" position the wheel movement turns the car less, whereas at maximum lock it turns more..sort of like a variable ratio giving me finer control in the centre and more turn at full lock :cool:

I don't particularlaly subscribe to the 900 degrees of rotation thing... at risk of heresey I think its a bit gimmicky :tape: lol, if you watch in car footage of most circuit racing, you dont normally see the drivers use much more than around 200-300 degrees of steering movement.. watch the v8's today and you'll see drivers have their hands at 9 & 3 (oclock) positions down the straights and go to around say a ;left hand corner their right hand goes to around 11-12 oclock.. so they use about 90-110 degrees.. in other words 220 degrees is all you probably all you need most of the time for racing. Sure you need to allow for super tight hairpins & stuff, but I dont think you realistically ever see a race driver turing the wheel 2.5 turns on a bitumen track..

to me.. 900 degrees is useful for parking the car at the shops :tape:.. but each to their own of course :D

so if you run 10 per 300, thats a ratio of 15:1 which is actually slow I think.. I recall there was a big discussion on the old racesimcentral forum, and around 11:1 to 13:1 was the range that most peeps seemed to feel was realistic

I'm in no way suggesting anyone else tries the very quick ratio I use.. its not realistic for the historic mod.. but it does make it easy to catch slides :eyebrows:

I guess my point is that I think thats why I "feel" a lot with rfactor ffb and its quite strong for me - where others say rfactors ffb is poor..
It would be interesting as a test, if you sped up your ratio to say 10:1 (g25 @ 400 degrees and car setup of 20)and increased you G25 ffb to something like 130% in logitech control panel.. which would put the ffb "rating" as I calculated it much closer to what mine is - whether you notice much difference in ffb feel?

[Mr Fox]

I rarely go past 12 o'clock when racing, If I did, it wouldn't be very useful. If I hit 2 O'clock something has gone wrong or I'm deliberately putting the car into a controlled slide, I don't think you can get a finer way to stay on the edge other than using 900. The high wheel lock you use would explain your high tire wear. Also I don't use speed sensitive steering either. That is set at "0" which is the key ingredient your missing when using 900.

I have used 270 (old wheel) for a couple of years and 900 as well, I feel 900 is much more accurate for me, but then if you never adjust your speed sensitivity I see could how you might think 900 would be good for parking cars.

[Crash]

I rarely go past 12 o'clock when racing, If I did, it wouldn't be very useful. If I hit 2 O'clock something has gone wrong or I'm deliberately putting the car into a controlled slide, I don't think you can get a finer way to stay on the edge other than using 900. The high wheel lock you use would explain your high tire wear. Also I don't use speed sensitive steering either. That is set at "0" which is the key ingredient your missing when using 900.

I have used 270 (old wheel) for a couple of years and 900 as well, I feel 900 is much more accurate for me, but then if you never adjust your speed sensitivity I see could how you might think 900 would be good for parking cars.

So what your saying is you really only use 180 degrees :) (12 oclock = 90 degrees).. which actually matches what I said in my previous post.. 220 degrees is all you probably need for racing lol

you would get exactly the same accurate fine control feeling using your G25 set at 360 degrees and using a car setup lock of 12 degrees.. maintaining your ratio of 15:1 - since you dont go past 2 oclock you wont hit the limit of the wheel... unless you need to park it :tape: heheh

I also have speed sensitivity on 0

your right about accuracy though - its the ratio that gives you finer control than I have (you dont use 900 as yuo say - its not the 900 that gives you fine control - its the slow ratio). by running a very quick ratio I have better ability to catch slides early, at the detriment of finer control, which I have no doubt your absolutely right hurts my tyre wear.. but I just find it too hard to go any slower on the ratio (I'm too used to the quick ratio now lol) - what does help is also run 40% sensitivity which allows for finer control in the centre position of the wheel though.

anyway like I said my point isnt 900 or not really.. my point about all this is - I'm curious about whether the rfactor FFB feeling improves for you and others if you speed up the ratio & increase the G25 strength to make it comparable to what I run

[Mr Fox]

hmm yer ratio wont change but I still stand by my opinion that 900 is much better :Banane31:

[Crash]

I still stand by my opinion that 900 is much better :Banane31:

for parking the car :caked:lol


Wanted: volunteer willing to try running a faster ratio & higher G25 ffb strength to see if it improves the feeling they get out of rfactors ffb? :)

[Mr Fox]

I played around with the leo and reelfeel today.:tape:

[NineTen]

for parking the car :caked:lol


Wanted: volunteer willing to try running a faster ratio & higher G25 ffb strength to see if it improves the feeling they get out of rfactors ffb? :)

I'm going to try your settings when I get a chance. I think I run a fairly fast ratio anyway but have never looked into the ffb side before. I just run realfeel & have slightly adjusted it in the logitech panel & rfactor settings. I only run 220 degrees rotation now & usually run about 17 degrees in game so will be interesting to see what your setup is like.

Hopefully try it tomorrow night or Tuesday night.

[Crash]

I'm going to try your settings when I get a chance. I think I run a fairly fast ratio anyway but have never looked into the ffb side before. I just run realfeel & have slightly adjusted it in the logitech panel & rfactor settings. I only run 220 degrees rotation now & usually run about 17 degrees in game so will be interesting to see what your setup is like.

Hopefully try it tomorrow night or Tuesday night.

Wow Nineten.. you have an even faster ratio than me lol... 6.47:1

not sure there'd be much point you trying it to be honest - if my theory is right you will get less ffb feeling by slowing your ratio to match mine - one thing I will suggest with such a quick ratio though is dropping the x-axis (steering axis) sensitivity a bit, this slows down the steering in the centre and will give you a bit more accuracy aournd the central position.. but still give you lots of turn as you approach the max wheel lock :)

[Daveo555]

Well it TCLs & some HistoriX cars, i usually run max steering lock which is usually around 40-ish. I run my wheel lock at 450.

[NineTen]

Wow Nineten.. you have an even faster ratio than me lol... 6.47:1

not sure there'd be much point you trying it to be honest - if my theory is right you will get less ffb feeling by slowing your ratio to match mine - one thing I will suggest with such a quick ratio though is dropping the x-axis (steering axis) sensitivity a bit, this slows down the steering in the centre and will give you a bit more accuracy aournd the central position.. but still give you lots of turn as you approach the max wheel lock :)

I'll still give it a try. Mine isn't great since I have got my new PC. Just doesn't feel the same as it used to even though I copied my rfactor settings over to the new PC.

I'l try a few different things Tuesday hopefully to see what I can come up with. Understand now why we both have higher tyre wear too :)

[Crash]

Well it TCLs & some HistoriX cars, i usually run max steering lock which is usually around 40-ish. I run my wheel lock at 450.

at 40 car lock.. thats 5.6:1 wow, I thought I was the only one running a fast ratio, seems there's a few of us :)

bit suprised mine isnt the fastest actually

Im the same in regards to changing it to suit the car

Historics I can get as high as 24-25 degrees in car setup, bt thats extreme - getting to 6.3:1 at my fastest.
around 20-21 is more typical for the historic mod though, so around 7.5:1 - I just find the historic cars need a bit more lock in the corners, and they arent the most reponsive cars around lol :)

TCL I run around 19, so around 8.2:1

Enduracers I run 17-18, maybe going to 18.5 or 19 on a circuit with a very tight corner. with a car setup of 17.5 that makes my steering ratio 9:1

Its a shame the old racesimcentral forums were lost.. there was so much good info there. I remember reading a huge thread with many pages about steering ratios which was very interesting reading.. iirc the general consensus was around 11:1 - 13:1 was the most "realistic" setting for race cars.. and most guys ended up running a little faster than that


EDIT: iirc OS-mike posted once that he runs a lot of lock as well.. is it coincidence that some regular front runners are using fast steering ratios? hmm.... :confused:

[Mr Fox]

daveo's ratio works out to be 11.25, why do you keep dividing it by 2?

[Daveo555]

Just remember both os-mike & myself have done some rf drifting before hence why we are use to the higher locks. Also the only real reason i run the lock high is so i can catch the car when i drifts.

[BJSRacer]

You guy's are giving me a headache. Whatever Glen runs seems to do me OK :D

[Crash]

daveo's ratio works out to be 11.25, why do you keep dividing it by 2?

Nah - the acording to the many pages of info on the racesimecentral thread, the steering lock figure you put in the car setup is the amount turning one way only.. so you times that x 2 to get the total movement from full left to full right, which makes sense otherwise yours would work out to 30:1 which would be a ridicilous ratio..


so Daveo's is 450 divided by 80 :) = 5.63:1

mine is 315 / 42 = 7.5:1

Ninetens is 220 / 34 = 6.47:1

yours is 900 / 60 = 15:1

and so on

sorry BJ not meaning to do anyones head in lol.. its all just personal preference stuff at the end of the day, but it honestly might be handy info for those that are trying to setup their steering to be able to compare what others are running.. and I have a dodgy theory that peeps that find rfactors ffb weak/poor might be running slow ratios (due to the gearing down reducing the force)

[Mr Fox]

Ahhh ok well that's wierd that rfactor would do that. I will see if It's in the readme. I still think your ratio feels way to arcadey :) I guess it comes down to your steering speed sensitivity. If rfactor decided that 30 degree wheel lock is really 60 degrees then I wouldn't like to see the theory behind there speed sensitivity steering ratio.... all sounding a bit dodge to me and that's exactly why I use the best ratio for practicality and tire wear. In a race I will maybe go as high as 300o in a hair pin, other than that the rest of the rotation only gets used for pulling out of a pit bay or a emergency u-turn. So while you won't buy into the 900 thingy that's fine, I can comment on both rotations as I have used 270 for years and now use 900. The only time I consider 360 is in open wheelers.

[Wally]

Hi Wally, just a quick question,

So is there no fiddling with realfeel, just to put it at 30% and thats it? and then adjust leo to suit.

Yep, that's what I do. You can fiddle with the 30% balance too until it feels like a nice balance.

[Crash]

Ahhh ok well that's wierd that rfactor would do that. I will see if It's in the readme. I still think your ratio feels way to arcadey :) I guess it comes down to your steering speed sensitivity. If rfactor decided that 30 degree wheel lock is really 60 degrees then I wouldn't like to see the theory behind there speed sensitivity steering ratio.... all sounding a bit dodge to me and that's exactly why I use the best ratio for practicality and tire wear. In a race I will maybe go as high as 300o in a hair pin, other than that the rest of the rotation only gets used for pulling out of a pit bay or a emergency u-turn. So while you won't buy into the 900 thingy that's fine, I can comment on both rotations as I have used 270 for years and now use 900. The only time I consider 360 is in open wheelers.

lol - I think your worrying to much about what might be "right" or "wrong" :)... there is no right & wrong here, just what works for you, me & others - and as we can see theres a big range of what works for different peeps :nod:

its nothing to do with speed sensitivity imo.. I run 0 on speed sensitivity and I bet most peeps do, its to do with the response we look for and how much we move our hands is all.. I just dont move my hands as much as you do

I started thinking about the ffb strength aspect and how it relates to the gearing ratio after bird said his car wasnt turning, and it turns out his ratio was too slow for him.. so for him to feel comfortable he needs to speed it up :)

btw: I think the way rfactor uses car lock numbers is probably correct.. if I could be bothered I'd go googling for info, but I'm fairly sure thats how lock is qouted in real world setups like F1 etc.. the angle a wheel goes from straight ahead to maximum turn.. so full steering is double that = full turn from maximum left to maximum rightm, but anyway it really doesnt matter.

I'll stop talking about it now anyway.. seems like its doing your head in :fear:


EDIT: any new guys trying to setup rfactor for the first time that read all this (would anyone bother? lol), my personal recommendation is to go for a "starting point" steering ratio of 12:1 (900 degrees wheel, 37-38 degrees car setup), speed sensitivity of 0, and I also recommend that all axis sensitivity - throttle, brake & steering is left at the default of 50 (50 = linear motion) and deadzones are left at default 0 (no deadzone) -then if you feel you are moving your hands too much and the car is too lazy, you can try speeding up the ratio, or if you find it hard to be accurate and the car darts too much, you can try slowing down the ratio :)

[Mr Fox]

What's doing my head in is you putting out false information. Wheel lock is calculated from lock to lock not from centre to lock..... You said you run 40 something in steering speed sensitivity. Bring on season 8... did I mention 2x tires :)

[Crash]

What's doing my head in is you putting out false information. Wheel lock is calculated from lock to lock not from centre to lock..... You said you run 40 something in steering speed sensitivity. Bring on season 8... did I mention 2x tires :)

my speed sensitivity is 0

my x-axis sensitiviy is 40 - default is 50, 50 is linear motion and the best setting (also default setting) so I have gone away from the default to have a little more movement/accuracy in the centre but its really not that much - think of it as variable steering which some real-life cars have (google it before you say thats wrong too lol)

and as for steering lock - does it really matter to you that much how its qouted? think of what you said "lock" to "lock".. (sounds like lock one way to lock the other way doesnt it..) heres some info that confirms that "lock" is turning one way http://www.carbibles.com/steering_bible.html


and yes :focus: bring on season 8



and your wrong heheh

[Mr Fox]

Ok I give up, 900 is completely gimicky (as quoted by you) and what ever you use is the only option anyone should ever use. There ya happy now.

[Crash]

Ok I give up, 900 is completely gimicky (as quoted by you) and what ever you use is the only option anyone should ever use. There ya happy now.

no mate lol, like I said multiple times its personal preference, what I use works for me and what you use works for you :) there is no single option that works for everyone, and I dont even suggest mine is a good option! I never meant for this to feel like an attack on what anyone uses (and I'm truly sorry if it felt that way) becuase thats not what I'm about - I'm just trying to help others out who might be struggling

what all this info will be useful for hopefully - is for peeps that are unhappy with how rf feels for them, wether thats week ffb or floaty in the centre or whatever - there is so much that can be configured in rf, that they should be able to get it to a point where it works for them. Knowing how big a range there is between peeps setups and what other peeps run may help them to tune it to what they like by going outside what they have tried previously, in the end that may be similar to your setup or it may be similar to mine (unlikely lol)

[Bird]

I have gathered my courage for another run with this...thanks for the tip on the input change, it has re-set my FFB.

I've tried lapping a bit but I've noticed the car does not really react to throttle input...not in the low-throttle regions. Lo and behold, the pedal input does not show up, that's why!
Help, please. I've set my pedals with dxTweak2 long ago, I've double-checked it's all good. But the first half of the travel does not register in rF.

Any ideas?

Btw, crash, it seems the 10:1 in nkp suits me well, altho I reckon I get used to whatever there is - as long as the car turns in. However, funny that, I can't set up 10:1 in rF! Not with a 900 deg wheel, certainly. (lock maxes out at 40) It's all right though, I just went up to 40, and finally the car turns. :)

And what I don't agree with; you said it's great that everyone can set up their preference in FFB, as to what they feel realistic. I reckon there's only one realistic feel; THE realistic feel. Anything else is NOT realistic (or at least less realistic); therefore anything else is irrelevant and unnecessary, IMHO.

[Crash]

I have gathered my courage for another run with this...thanks for the tip on the input change, it has re-set my FFB.

I've tried lapping a bit but I've noticed the car does not really react to throttle input...not in the low-throttle regions. Lo and behold, the pedal input does not show up, that's why!
Help, please. I've set my pedals with dxTweak2 long ago, I've double-checked it's all good. But the first half of the travel does not register in rF.

Any ideas?.

Sounds a bit weird.. I assume you dont have the same problem in nkpro?

if not, it sounds like it might be a mapping problem or something like that....in rfactor check which axis you have mapped for brakes, then go and check the deadzone (should be 0) and sensitivity (should be 50 as a starting point) for that axis


Btw, crash, it seems the 10:1 in nkp suits me well, altho I reckon I get used to whatever there is - as long as the car turns in. However, funny that, I can't set up 10:1 in rF! Not with a 900 deg wheel, certainly. (lock maxes out at 40) It's all right though, I just went up to 40, and finally the car turns. :).


good stuff bird :) and your right the only way to get to a 10:1 ratio or faster with the historics mod is to reduce the wheel down, so you could reduce it to 800 degrees & 40 car lock, or just get used to it as you have it now :)

[Bird]

forgot to mention; I've checked the deadzone and sensitivity, they're fine. The mapped axis is correct. I'll try to re-map it later, maybe that helps?

Oh, and of course, in any other game it's correct (sims and arcade alike)

[Wally]

forgot to mention; I've checked the deadzone and sensitivity, they're fine. The mapped axis is correct. I'll try to re-map it later, maybe that helps?

Oh, and of course, in any other game it's correct (sims and arcade alike)

I think I still have the same pedals as you Bird. In the dim, dark past, I vaguely remember editing the controller.ini file for the throttle axis. There's some line in there which looked ass up - like there was an 0.5 where I thought it should have been 0 (or vice versa). Like a minimum or maximum. As you can see, I'm struggling to remember, but if you look at the throttle axis lines in that file, something might stand out for you.

[Bird]

Thanks, I'll check that one out, Wally! (A1 GT pedals, btw)

[RS2000]

And what I don't agree with; you said it's great that everyone can set up their preference in FFB, as to what they feel realistic. I reckon there's only one realistic feel; THE realistic feel. Anything else is NOT realistic (or at least less realistic); therefore anything else is irrelevant and unnecessary, IMHO.

Ah but people perceive reality differently, and notice/feel different things. I know in the real world I'm particularly sensitive to car weight transfer but I don't notice the actual roll (side to side) of the car so much, while being very sensitive to pitch front to back, ie nose up/nose down. I assume I have similar discrepancies in what I feel through the wheel, based on my past experiences, the cars I drive and have driven and the feedback they gave me, and my own brain's interpretation of the information I'm receiving through my eyes, ears, nose and skin. Something as small as a different diameter wheel or steering wheel or change in tyre pressure or track temperature will make a big difference to the feedback received in the driver's seat too.

This is what the FFB should try to replicate, your own experience of feedback, and I'm with Crash, each person will have a different idea on feedback and perceive it differently.

PS This is also why I refuse to race with the cockpit view, it's simply not how I perceive the car around me when I race for real. My mind makes the cockpit/interior and bonnet disappear when I'm racing a real car. It's not a conscious thing, it just happens.

[Bird]

perception is a big thing.
You can make the on-screen stuff disappear just as well (be it cockpit or dials only)

But this, IMHO, only enforces my side of the argument; there's one truth, one correct FFB, the rest is perception. :)

[Imperious]

Gee, talk about thread hi-jacking.

[Wally]

Gee, talk about thread hi-jacking.

You only perceive this as a thread hijack.

[Crash]

You only perceive this as a thread hijack.

LMAO I'm picturing you waving your hand in a jedi mind-trick manner lol

[Bird]

Gee, talk about thread hi-jacking.
it's called "open discussion" in the real world :D

in any case I've never been really bothered by it, and never really understood why people get upset about it - as long as we're chatting, we're using the forum, what's the big deal?

[Crash]

my own brain's interpretation of the information I'm receiving through my eyes, ears, nose and skin... My mind makes the cockpit/interior and bonnet disappear when I'm racing a real car. It's not a conscious thing, it just happens.

slightly off topic - I'm taking a guess that you've had some exposure or schooling in phsychology/biology or similar RS? the way you've worded the above makes me recall some of the concepts of how the human brain interacts with the senses...

[gawaterman]

slightly off topic - I'm taking a guess that you've had some exposure or schooling in phsychology/biology or similar RS? the way you've worded the above makes me recall some of the concepts of how the human brain interacts with the senses...

or drugs :=)

[Daveo555]

or drugs :=)


I imagined you saying that in the Achmed the dead terroist voice. lol